According to MAB datas, a model D with a 4 digit serial number doesn't exist (e.g. The firsts made in 1933 had the serial 10500 for the 9 mm short version and 10730 for the 7,65 mm version). The only pistols close to a D with that kind of serial numbers are the model C, which serial numbers re-began after the war (after november 1946- 3401 in september 1948, 7141 in march 1950, over 23000 in march 1954) and and may be the model C/D, began to be made in january 1950 (from serial number I, serial number 276 in march 1954).To say more about the serial numbers of the MAB model D: In 1936, the serial numbers were over 19 000. During the war, more or less 50 000 pistols have been delivered to the germans (serial numbers between 47000 and 97000 but it seem that during that period, some serial numbers could have been used twice due to the disorder caused by the germans). In june 1945, serial number 103431, in september 1948: 77281 (!), in march 1950: 79221, in march 1954: 122041 to 123201, in september 1956: 326821 to 327021. What you have is the late production guns not used by the French Military, rather they were given to the Gendarmerie and other agencies in France, at this time, the using agencies renumbered the guns.
This is covered in 'French Service Handguns' by Huon and Medlin.Usually there is a 'trench' milled in the side of the receiver where the original number was stamped, and they stamped the new number in this cut. I have several here in the shop that are so marked.
This is similar to the Unique pistols that have the same style cut in the receiver that enables the stamping of a new number.Dale. According to Jean HUON, the weapons with a serial number beginning by 'BF' were given to the guards of the 'Banque de France'. May be the D was used by les Douanes (customs)? The weapons used by the police judiciaire before the 70's or 80's were keeping their original serial number and received a second serial number with the letters 'PJ' in front. It seem that the same practise was used by the Police of Paris when it was not yet part of the rest of the french police.
The letters in front of the second serial number were 'PP'. I have seen may be one or two MAB pistols milled and renumbered. I thought this practise was the exception (e.g. For weapons rebuilt with spare parts coming from different weapons). Thanks a lot for the info, Dale.Last edited by Alamas; at 02:42 AM. Doc -The mark is 'WaA251'; it is called a 'Waffenamt' and is the mark of Heereswaffenamt unit 251.
Heereswaffenamt = Army Weapons Office/Dept. This mark is a German army acceptance mark used on MAB pistols produced for the German military during the German occupation of France, and inspected and approved for military use by inspection unit 251. The barrel should also have a small eagle & swastika acceptance mark on it. Unit 251 inspected pistols produced in France and Spain for the German military.The German occupation MAB D s/n range is approx 47000 to 97000.
Those in the range 47000 - 86400 have a WaA251 Waffenamt; those 86400 - 97000 have a WaAD20 Waffenamt.Bill. Doc -As with all firearms recently, prices have wildly fluctuated. To see what people are currently willing (or not willing) to pay, I'd review current and recent auctions on GunBroker. Generally, the pistols with Waffenamts are clearly described as such (ie, look for Waffenamt, German, Nazi, etc) since this is a desirable enough characteristic that it generally increases the asking price - and has enticed some sellers into adding a WaA (or something that passes as one) to pistols that, in some cases, were made after WWII ended.This is an issue of fascination with WWII German militaria and sometimes Nazi symbolism, I think. In terms of rarity, French military Type 1 MAB Ds.without. a Waffenamt are much more rare; about 50,000 (almost half the Type 1 production) were made during the German occupation and bear a WaA. On the other hand, only about 6,000 were made after the end of the occupation, all or virtually all before WWII ended in Europe in May 1945, and most for the French military (some are marked for the (then) French protectorate of Morocco).
Mab Model C Serial Numbers For Sale
Another approx 47,000 were made from 1933 to the beginning of the German occupation in June 1940; of these, about 16,000 (s/n 31000 - 47000) are believed to have gone to the French military. This indicates that there are about 22,000 French military Type 1 MAB Ds, vs about 50,000 with WaA.The rarest may be the Type 1 MAB Ds with an 'L' prefixed s/n - apparently about 1,160 of these were made at some point during the German occupation. Although otherwise indistingushable from the standard German occupation pistols, they do not bear WaA marks.Bill. Apologies for dredging up an older thread, but I must have missed it the first time around. Where can I find more information on the L prefix MABs?Good question; I've previously asked it both here and on some of the boards dealing with German military use of 'foreign' weapons, but with no results.The only reason I know these truly exist is that I have one (L 644) and have seen photos of a couple of others.
The only source of information on them I have found is a single reference in a 1967 letter from the director of MAB to Robert Whittington, which merely states that during the German occupation MAB Ds were made with s/n 47000 - 97000 and L1 - L1160. Every other reference I have run across is derived from this letter. A copy of the letter is included in Whittington's German Pistols and Holsters 1934-1945, vol II as figure 87 on p.
Every other reference I have run across is derived from this letter and merely repeats the same information.From the physical characteristics of my pistol (and what I could tell from the photos of the others), these are late occupation production pistols but do not have the WaA or barrel marks. However, the spacing of the s/n and 'MAB' on the right frame above the trigger is the same as with the WaA-marked pistols, leaving space for the WaA but without the mark. The pre-occupation pistols used a different spacing, and none of the post-occupation Type I pistols I have seen use the 'MAB'.If you have one of these pistols, I'd appreciate seeing a photo of the left side, showing the slide hold-open latch. These did not appear in the photos I saw of the other L-s/n pistols, and I would like to see if mine is typical. Several different styles were used over the years, so this could help narrow the production period.Bill. Thank you for the information and the citations.
As requested, pics. I can also tell you it was a vet bring back from World War 2, and at the time acquired over there was residing in a Polish Radom holster. Unfortunately my relative bought it off another GI in theatre, and I do not know where it was originally acquired.
Don't mind the missing grips, the originals were warped and almost melted looking, I am sourcing replacements, and hope to try it out soon. The outside has some wear as you can see but the internals are mint.Last edited by N White; at 10:19 AM. Thanks for the info, it really answers some questions. Unfortunately, the attachment does not work.Let me try sending it again, this time via PhotoBucket.BTW, you appear to have the first type of MAB D magazine, with the holes in both sides. It should also have 'MAB 7.65' stamped into the base. During the German occupation, this was replaced with a design similar to the Unique 17 & Kriegsmodell magazine, with two slots on the left side and the two sides folded over the base. Sometime after WWII MAB replaced this with a third design, with the same slots but the sides crimped to the base rather than folded over.
All three types of magazines are interchangable.The first type of MAB D magazine is not really rare, but it is uncommon. The second type is pretty easy to find, and the third type not difficult to find, although it seems less common than the second type.
(There are also a variety of aftermarket magazines of various designs and reliability, some of which resemble the MAB OEM magazines.)BillLast edited by GunShy; at 12:25 AM. Frank,Good catch. The L-prefix pistols appear to be the most-rare MAB D version. Based on the physical characteristics of the pistols, they appear to be from around the middle of the German occupation. That the L-prefix pistols typically come with the early magazine type supports this, although the MAB D magazine types are commonly intermixed among these pistols, so cannot be relied upon too much.The warped grips is a typical problem with the WWII and early post-WWII pistols, and is due to the grips being made of casein, a milk-sold based plastic. There does not seem to be any effective way to correct the shrinkage and warpage; attempts to apply heat and/or moisture to restore them have been unsatisfactory, sometimes resulting in the grips breaking as they dry out again if they've been remounted on the pistol while pliable.One of the nice things about your pistol is that it is still original.
Later imports not only had the rear sights and grips changed to 'target' versions to increase their BATF import score, but also usually have the ejection port enlarged to expose the end of the extractor (which was often then painted red) so it could be claimed as a 'loaded chamber indicator,' worth a few more points. While the other 'improvements' can be corrected, this cannot.Bill. I was able to fit the grips from vintage and they look the part. I did need to fit them, they stuck up too far, a few holes needed some adjustment, and needed some sanding and recessing to clear the internal parts on the left side, at first it was dragging on the sear. Also, I found the lower grip backstrap missing the forward hook portion that keeps it in place just forward of the swivel, I was able to get a replacement from gunpartscorp and it works fine.
I shot it again, and I think it was not cycling fully as the firing pin was not cocked and the next round in the mag was getting caught by the firing pin that was still protruding. I might just need to lube it a bit as the first time I shot it it was fine.
Frank,Good catch. The L-prefix pistols appear to be the most-rare MAB D version. Based on the physical characteristics of the pistols, they appear to be from around the middle of the German occupation. That the L-prefix pistols typically come with the early magazine type supports this, although the MAB D magazine types are commonly intermixed among these pistols, so cannot be relied upon too much.The warped grips is a typical problem with the WWII and early post-WWII pistols, and is due to the grips being made of casein, a milk-sold based plastic.
There does not seem to be any effective way to correct the shrinkage and warpage; attempts to apply heat and/or moisture to restore them have been unsatisfactory, sometimes resulting in the grips breaking as they dry out again if they've been remounted on the pistol while pliable.One of the nice things about your pistol is that it is still original. Later imports not only had the rear sights and grips changed to 'target' versions to increase their BATF import score, but also usually have the ejection port enlarged to expose the end of the extractor (which was often then painted red) so it could be claimed as a 'loaded chamber indicator,' worth a few more points. While the other 'improvements' can be corrected, this cannot.Bill. Frog,I don't think that all D-prefix pistols are that late.
I am certain D-prefix s/n pistols go back to the 1950s and suspect they may go back to the late 1940s. Both MAB D and Ruby-type pistols were used at the same time by some French agencies, so perhaps here as well.Thanks to information posted by Alamas about a year ago that provides dates for the production or shipment of specific pistols, it is now possible to establish a rough chronology for MAB D pistols if we start with a few premises. Those premises are:1 - The markings and characteristics of MAB pistols evolved over the years.2 - These changes were generally consistent with the progression of the s/n, so that pistols with latter markings and characteristics have later s/n, allowing for the restart of MAB s/n in the years after WWII. (Given the realities of factory production, with multiple workers making pistols at multiple workstations drawing parts from a common storage area, it is to be expected that in some cases parts with new markings or features will end up on a pistol with a somewhat earlier s/n, and there may be a small number of anomolies with wildly divergent s/n, but the general trend holds true.)3 - The letter-prefix s/n pistols are the same as 'regular' numeric s/n pistols manufactured at the same time. Shown is my Dad's MAB Modele D.Note the serial number is NOT the usual, numeric only, rather 'P.M 4250'He bought it of a clearance table in a department store in Dallas, Texas back in the late 1950's.My research indicates that the expression 'Brevete - S.G.D.G' expands to Brevete - sans Garantie du Government, or patent without guarantee of the government (pat pending).
I was hoping for the French equivalent of 'Specially designed and issued to U.S. Can anyone shed light on the odd serial number? Let us know how it turns out, RJ, with photos if possible.While the MAB C and D are essentially the same design and share a lot of parts, you may run into two problem areas. First, your model D is a fairly late Type I and your model C slide is almost certainly a Type II, how late is unknown. Because of both Type I - Type II design changes and manufacturing changes, you may run into trouble just getting the slide to fit without modification to the slide and/or frame.Second, the model C barrels I have seen are designed for a different angle on the feeding ramp than the model D barrels. This is true both of model Cs and (factory) model C/Ds. As a result, the model C barrels will not feed correctly in a model D frame (Type I or Type II), and the model D barrels will not feed correctly in a Type II model C frame.
The model C/Ds I've seen have feeding ramps cut as on a model C, and as a result will also not feed correctly with a Type II model D slide & barrel (even though it is a Type II model D frame). I don't know if these are standard model C and model D characteristics or reflect manufacturing changes during the years, but if this is true with your model D and model C slide & barrel you will have to modify your frame to accomodate the model C slide & barrel.The other thing is that, AFAIK, all factory model C/Ds are post-WWII and use Type II parts (despite their occasionally being listed as produced during the German occupation; I've yet to see any actual evidence of one of these). You might want to think about modifying a German occupation MAB D to create a hybrid Type I & Type II C/D that never actually existed, so collector value drops to zero.BTW, IMHO the only advantage of the C/D over the C is having a larger grip to hold onto and more rounds.
It has no advantage over the D, except perhaps being slightly easier to draw because of the shorter barrel. Firing a C/D is not noticably different than firing a D (but nicer than a C - thanks to the longer grip).Bill. I don't really know - collectors collect what they collect, and they are not always focused primarily on everything being original. According to the conventional wisdom, a Nazi-marked MAB D is worth twice a similar condition un-marked MAB D, so even a refinished Nazi-marked MAB D will have enhanced value. The line between collectible and shooter can be pretty gray sometimes. But an excellent original finish example will always be the most desirable/valuable, all other things being equal.There is also, I think, a very reasonable debate over the degree to which refinishing reduces value. As the argument goes, as more and more people collect these firearms (which seems to be the case) the remaining excellent original finish examples will gradually disappear into collections and become more expensive.
Collectors without deep pockets (or unwilling to dig deep into their pockets) will have to choose among the poorer condition original finish examples and the refinished examples. At that point, excellently refinished examples may be preferable to many collectors - unless we decide to arbitrarily exclude them from being collectors. (The logic here follows the history of other collectiblibles - while restored paintings, autos, etc, are not as valuable as excellent condition all-original examples, they are often worth more than all-original examples that are damaged, badly worn, etc.) But this requires taking the long view.Bill. Bill you were right, the slide went on fine till it got back to the firing pin keeper part on the frame.
Appears the c hole is about.015- 020 lower then d slide hole. I went to work with a file and brought firing pin hole down till c slide would go on. I know- makes you want to cringe.Like new c slide and barrel cost me $80 so i figured i will make it work or be out $80. Won't modify d frame in any way.Now slide,barrel etc are on and it works with snap caps by hand just fine cocking and firing. Will be awhile till i have time to test it.The only bugaboo is the c slide sits farther forward on frame by about 1/16' so there is an extra 1/16' of frame sticking out the back of slide. Also the safety lever wont go up into slide recess w/o pulling slide back about 1/16'. The second recess for holding the slide open is worthless being way closer to the safety notch so it only holds the slide halfway open, not all the way locked backed open.
Must of been a design change there. I will machine a new one in the proper place later.The saftey does work however w/o going up into the slide recess. I will just try it as is for now and report back.Wont be any modifying the d frame ramp. As it sits now the barrel is a little behind of the frame ramp so it doesnt seem to be a problem feeding cartridges in.Understood-no mab d frame or slides were hurt or harmed in the work to get the c slide on d framerj. Yes - since this is going on a (longer) MAB D frame the distance between the front and rear slide cut-out has to be the same as on a MAB D; the distance on a MAB C slide is considerably shorter. With a single exception, every MAB C/D I have seen has a slide with the same distance between the cut-outs as a MAB D, and on the one exception this may be one more indication that that pistol was not originally a C/D.The rear of the slide should be more-or-less flush with the rear of the frame (allowing for the finishing that would have occured at the factory). If the slide is sitting forward there may be some binding in the rails.
Note that Type II slides are slightly longer, and Type II barrels slightly shorter than with a Type I, this may also be related to installing a Type II slide on a Type I frame.If you don't have one, I can post a photo of a factory model C/D.Bill.